Talk:Marine Corps of Masada
Never mentioned directly.--dotz 20:44, 21 April 2009 (UTC) :Captain Yu mentioned that the Havenite Marines were replaced with Masadan ones, and that Major Bryan was one of the few Havenite Marine officers left on the vessel. If they were Army personnel, he would have mentioned it and at least one of his officers would have annoyed about it, since every scene with them, they are complaining about something wrong with the Masadans, whether technology or just plain complaints. --Farragut79 05:34, 22 April 2009 (UTC) ::Never fails to amaze my how precise you're reading these books, Farragut! :-) -- SaganamiFan 16:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC) :Thank You, On my talk list I have a list of articles or upcoming articles that are categorized by their respective chapters, which I usually re-read a few times for accuracy sake. HH2 is taking forever because of real-life issues, the fact that each chapter is loaded with massive amounts of new stuff, and i was a little over-whelmed by the time you guys entered the scene, which by the way you have my forever gratitude. --Farragut79 20:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC) Seriuous doubts Well, I have to add non-definitive contra voice (marine corps vs marine complement). Facts #The one and only mention, that may concern Masada had real marines appeares in chapter 30: Yu hated to send the corporal in person, but he had no choice. He’d managed to hang onto his original Marine officers and most of his noncoms, and every one of them had been briefed on Bounty, but almost half Thunder’s enlisted Marines were Masadans, #there were no Masadan non-naval officers presence onboard confirmed before soldiers transport occured, two colonels appeared than (sic!), #senior appeared marine officer, who was present before soldiers transport occured, was Havenite - Major Bryan, #all further mentions concerning battle onboard refered soldiers on Masadan side, #Havenite origin personnel of Thunder and Principality obtained Masadan citizenship (HH2 - Theissmans entry), ships offcially belonged to Masada, #Havenite and Graysons destroyers and light cruisers _ had no/had no place _ for marine complements (Jane's, HH2, to have them on such small units RMN empolyed marines as beam weapons operators), #marine corps for developing GSN was created within army (HH4) (no tradition of any/separate marine corps). Conclusions * (ad 1, 4) Thunder’s enlisted Marines doesn't exactly mean "members of Marine Corps of Masada" - just some Masadan enlisted crew, some troops acting as marines (there were possible "non-marine origin marine complements" like SS Ground Forces within SSNF or pirate boarding parties - HHA4:TSotS) * (ad 6) small and obsolete NoM vessels very likely had no place for marine complements (diffrent opinion is present at Honorverse Ships List - 5 Masadan cruisers were supposed to have 6/144 marine complement each = together 30/720 boarded marines - not to many to invade a planet, destroyers were supposed not to have marine complement), * (ad 5, 6) with brand new battlecruiser NoM had to organize its own marine complement (of course), using Havenite patterns, * (ad 1) Masadan commissioned officers presence in Thunder's marine complement not confirmed, but possible, * (ad 2, 3) Col. Nesbit's presence onboard before transport of soldiers is not confirmed, Colonel is to high rank for CO of 300 marines (weak batalion, Manty Reliant-class Nike BC had Lieutenant Colonel in charge of 592 marines), on the other hand Masadan military standards could be strange, * (ad 2, 3) two colonels event can indicate one of them was member of "original" marine complement, still it is not certain, if Col. Nesbit (conditional) was a such person; also - heads of Thunder's departments were Havenite, so very likely marine CO would be Havenite too, * (ad 4) it is rather unlikely not to mention Masadan marines during battle onboard and not to distinguish them from ordinary soldiers in transport (however it can be matter of DW's wrighting technique), * (ad 6) newly organized marine complement can be refered as Masadan marines and was a kind of corps (it should be indicated in the article, that name of that organization/department/corps is conjectural however). --dotz 17:17, 23 April 2009 (UTC) --dotz 20:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC) Well, I haven't ended my statement. Please re-read it once again some time later. After the weekend. BTW: * who were Colonel Harris’ men? * need quotation concerning Yu's complaints (mentioned twice here). --dotz 23:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC) :Well, read replays, revised doubts and still I think it should be stated in the article, that presence MCoM is hypothetical (and deducted). Another important thing is honest description how little we know about Nesbit (as you can see I do not stubbornly contradict idea, just would like to describe it carefully).--dotz 04:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC) Farragut's Position Response to the Facts * 1. Very good Pro-existence of Marines * 2. The medical personnel on the vessel wasn't mentioned, so do we assume that the Masadans have no medical personnel. * 3. Same as number two * 4. Major Bryan was, also, called a soldier. In all honesty, I figured that the author interchanged soldier and Marine when referred to them on the ship. It, also, can be believed that there were Army soldiers on board to help swell the ranks because the Marine manpower was low from either Blackbird or they were actually on the Masadan vessels that were destroyed. * 5. I don't get what your going with that point. If I think what your mentioning, why would some of the Havenites be a part of the Mutiny? * 6. Yet, Masada's military tradition has only one goal, to conquer or annihilate Grayson. They would need a Marine Corps to effect the landings on the planet. * 7. Same as above. Grayson only wanted self-defense. They wouldn't need a Marine Corps. It is only when they went on the offensive with Manticore, did they create one. The Rest First of all, awesome, I love this kind of debates. Secondly, the name of the article reflects on how Masada named their own navy. Since we have only one example: Navy of Masada, I followed suit with their Marine Corps and Army. Also, Capt Yu and his crew constantly complain about everything the Masadans do, and if they used Army regulars to substitute for Marines, then in character we would have heard about it. So I figure that since the Masadans replaced or have put people in every department of the vessel, that they have their Corps would have been logically. In comparison to Grayson, the Masadans devote much more of their time towards their military. It wouldn't make sense if you devote the majority of you time, effort, and equipment on invading a planet, if you have do not have an amphibious force to secure the landing zones, then there is no point. Even if their Marine Corps is a part of the Army of Masada, that still means they have a Marine Corps. In short story in the Worlds of Honor, doesn't Masada actively engage in piracy either from the Gov't or Privateers, which the Masadan Marines would have excellent practice in boarding parties. Even it is a Marine Complement, it would still be a part of the Marine Corps or at least a part of the Marine Corps department of the Army. Which would still make it a Marine Corps. It would be a Marine Corps if you only had one officer and five soldiers. The Marines are not just the name of a department, it is what they do that separates them from the Navy, the Army, the Air Force, the Coast Guard, the NOAA, or whatever other department you use. In my summary, if walks like a duck, talks like a duck, look like a duck, perform the exact same duties as a duck, then it is most certainly a goose, na just kidding, it is a duck or marines. --Farragut79 21:27, 24 April 2009 (UTC) Reply #2 *1. If there are Masadan Marines why cannot you assume there isn't a Masadan Marine Corps, then they wouldn't be Marines. In our time, other nations have Naval Infantry, which is considered to be Marines that are not named Marines, but they are still Marines. *2. Yes they do not have a large manpower supply behind them, but the roles and duties of a Marine (detachment or entire Corps) is A. Provide security on a ship and B. Establish and secure a beach head on enemy territory. Also, just because we haven't seen their entire arsenal does not mean they do not exist. *3. We do not know that the NoM established a Marine Corps after receiving the Thunder of God. *4. Honestly, I assumed Col Nesbit was in charge of the group being taken to the asteroid bases, who were manned by the MCoM, just like Colonel Harris and his men at Blackbird. *5. Given the fact that Mr Weber is fairly consistent detail wise, he would have said that they were just Army regulars because Marines are trained to fight in close quarters such as a ship. *6. I agree that the name should be noted as conjectural. Havenite Complaints of the Masadans: * 1. Chapter Thirty: DeGeorge complained about the ill-equipped Masadan soldiers on the Thunder of God, Valentine and Yu agreed. * 2. Chapter Thirty: Valentine informs Yu that there are mostly Masadans in engineering and Joe Mount is only there to make they don't f*ck up. * 3. Chapter Twenty-Seven: Yu and Lacy talked about the incompetency of Sword Simonds. * 4. Chapter Twenty-Seven: Lacy talks about despising Masada based on their one track mind. * 5. Chapter Twenty-Three: Theisman rants about how horrible and screwed the operation is with the Masadans * 6. Chapter Twenty-Three: Admiral Franks' plan was considered by Theisman to be the stupidest plan he ever heard (my favorite). --Farragut79 03:12, 25 April 2009 (UTC)